Curse

Yichi · Jul 15, 2009, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

...I still don't see GW as an MMO, but more of an ARPG like Diablo...

This is where your argument for your points kind of falls apart. You are lumping GW into games that have a completely different character structure than GW has. In games like Diablo, the dependance on items/equipment/levels has a far more reaching effect than it has on GW. Granted if both players are decked to the hilt in Diablo, are the same level, and run the same build, than yes it can effectively become what can be associated with GW pvp, but more so often than not, there are huge indifferences within characters/gear/levels, where GW pvp isn't focused on that. Every character has the same levels, same gear all the time which eliminates 2 of the major factors that almost every other game like Diablo have that GW does not. Also the fact that GW is a team based game, whereas in games like Diablo, a single player can "hammer" their way through an 8 player game with ease, without relying on anyone else even lifting a finger to help. I have been in duels and seen duels where a properly geared character can effectively wipe the entire game, even if the other 7 players with very high end gear/levels/builds all team up against them.

So with Guildwars, essentially it comes down to build choice and player skill, unlike other games where character development is far more crucial as a factor to the outcome.

Burst Cancel · Jul 15, 2009, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ebony Shadowheart

at the end of day all that matters is that you enjoyed yourself.

This isn't a competition mentality, however much you claim to understand competitive activity. There's a lot here I could respond to (in fact, I don't think I agree with a single thing in your post), but it's ultimately pointless because of the above mentality. To some people, winning matters, while others can't fathom what the big deal is ("gamez r srs bsns"). From what I've seen, neither camp has ever respected, let alone understood, the other.

Again, if fun is all you're concerned with, competitive activities are not for you. That isn't to say you can't have fun in a competitive activity, but fun itself is not the focus - to wit, there's always more to it than just having fun.

Still Number One · Jul 15, 2009, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ebony Shadowheart

at the end of day all that matters is that you enjoyed yourself.

This isn't a competition mentality, however much you claim to understand competitive activity. There's a lot here I could respond to (in fact, I don't think I agree with a single thing in your post), but it's ultimately pointless because of the above mentality. To some people, winning matters, while others can't fathom what the big deal is ("gamez r srs bsns"). From what I've seen, neither camp has ever respected, let alone understood, the other.

Again, if fun is all you're concerned with, competitive activities are not for you. That isn't to say you can't have fun in a competitive activity, but fun itself is not the focus - to wit, there's always more to it than just having fun.

I'd also like to add that having fun is great and all, but it isn't all that matters and it isn't the most important thing. The most important thing is that you improved your abilities. I've sacrificed a lot of possible "fun times" because I needed to work to improve my abilities. I could have had fun running around playing Byob and not get any better or I could play a balanced build, get stomped but learn from it. You don't learn from goofing around. Goofing around is fun but gets you nowhere in competitive environments.

So at the end of the day, all that matters is that you improved. Unless of course you are top quality material already, than all that matters is whether your cape is now gold because you won the monthly.

arcanemacabre · Jul 16, 2009, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yichi

This is where your argument for your points kind of falls apart. You are lumping GW into games that have a completely different character structure than GW has.

Regardless, Diablo 2 is very similar in gameplay. I always considered GW as a kind of updated version of D2, except with less gear options, less levels, more skills, and of course, more PvP options (and centering the game around PvP balance more). The gameplay itself is effectively the same - hacknslash RPG, or Action RPG. So, that said, my point remains unscathed, I believe.

Yichi · Jul 16, 2009, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Actually Diablo and Guildwars have completely different styles of gameplay. The interface is different, abilities different, camera work different, player targeting/aquisition different, selectable party members in Guildwars, skill usage different, no skill synergies, various more options for build not limited by gear, attribute points different, levels different, power levels of skills different, character map interaction different, travel different... (just to name a few of the probably hundreds if not thousands of differences in game styles)

so how are they similar again?

House Silvermoon · Jul 16, 2009, 06:09 PM // 18:09

like elitism doesn't exist in pve?

gud joke.

people's pitiful egos get bruised so they cant handle it. people are stupid and inept and lazy, just like they are in real life. not a big surprise to me. competition is what keeps mankind advancing and still alive, without it we would be dead cause only the strong survive.

Nerel · Jul 17, 2009, 12:57 AM // 00:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

This isn't a competition mentality, however much you claim to understand competitive activity. There's a lot here I could respond to (in fact, I don't think I agree with a single thing in your post), but it's ultimately pointless because of the above mentality. To some people, winning matters, while others can't fathom what the big deal is ("gamez r srs bsns"). From what I've seen, neither camp has ever respected, let alone understood, the other.

Again, if fun is all you're concerned with, competitive activities are not for you. That isn't to say you can't have fun in a competitive activity, but fun itself is not the focus - to wit, there's always more to it than just having fun.

You've never had fun in PvP *and* lost, yet still found the match enjoyable? I know I have, I've had some great fights that were brilliant and entertaining, and ended with my team being smacked down... lots of GGs and chat afterwards. It isn't always about winning. Not that winning isn't nice...

Avarre · Jul 17, 2009, 02:09 AM // 02:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nerel

You've never had fun in PvP *and* lost, yet still found the match enjoyable? I know I have, I've had some great fights that were brilliant and entertaining, and ended with my team being smacked down... lots of GGs and chat afterwards. It isn't always about winning. Not that winning isn't nice...

For some, it's about how they play. Losing a match after playing well is still good fun, but winning a match that they played awful in is likely to cause more frustration.

pumpkin pie · Jul 17, 2009, 03:32 AM // 03:32

No bridge!
Where will all the fun be if there's no PvP vs PvE argument on the forum.

and I agree, its about how one play the game.

Nerel · Jul 17, 2009, 03:56 AM // 03:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

No bridge!
Where will all the fun be if there's no PvP vs PvE argument on the forum.

and I agree, its about how one play the game.

Oh, don't be silly Pumpkin Pie, even if PvP is made more accessible in GW2 and more people move into PvP or PvX roles than in GW1, people will still argue about it, it's the nature of people, they're stupid. And thus your forum entertainment is assured!

Yay.

edit: OMG, Avatar change! Thank you PP!

edit moar! I have no idea who this Nian is, linky?

pumpkin pie · Jul 17, 2009, 04:00 AM // 04:00

Nerel, you should thank Nian the artist!, they made a wonderful picture of my Monkie!

lol I think its the same as playing a game, this forum thing, people just love to argue. Like me!

Avarre · Jul 17, 2009, 05:22 AM // 05:22

I'm glad to know you're filling threads with posts for the lulz.

Kook~NBK~ · Jul 17, 2009, 05:44 AM // 05:44

If there are any good arenas for bridging the gap between PvE and PvP, the holiday arenas are the ones. Everyone is on a level playing field with skills and armor. The only advantage anyone has is knowledge of the strategy involved and how well your team co-ordinated it's efforts.

I'll be running around this weekend in Snowball fights sans armor (or starter armor, if I feel like it) and using starter weapons (my candy weapons disappeared

) Why? Because to me, it's fun. AND it doesn't hurt my chances of winning one bit!

My point is this - there's going to be a lot of people in the snowball arena (you know, the one with skills with such names as "Let's Get 'Em!" and "Yellow Snow" and where the prize for winning is candy-cane shards - I'll be getting big bucks for those!) raging & QQing when they lose. I know not everyone acts that way, but those whiney cry-babies who can't handle losing and sit around the outpost (Snowball arenas, RA, TA, etc.) and piss and moan about getting beat are the ones that people new to PvP see. And, win or lose, those people are not fun to play with.

Nerel · Jul 17, 2009, 06:35 AM // 06:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kook~NBK~

If there are any good arenas for bridging the gap between PvE and PvP, the holiday arenas are the ones. Everyone is on a level playing field with skills and armor. The only advantage anyone has is knowledge of the strategy involved and how well your team co-ordinated it's efforts.

I'll be running around this weekend in Snowball fights sans armor (or starter armor, if I feel like it) and using starter weapons (my candy weapons disappeared

) Why? Because to me, it's fun. AND it doesn't hurt my chances of winning one bit!

My point is this - there's going to be a lot of people in the snowball arena (you know, the one with skills with such names as "Let's Get 'Em!" and "Yellow Snow" and where the prize for winning is candy-cane shards - I'll be getting big bucks for those!) raging & QQing when they lose. I know not everyone acts that way, but those whiney cry-babies who can't handle losing and sit around the outpost (Snowball arenas, RA, TA, etc.) and piss and moan about getting beat are the ones that people new to PvP see. And, win or lose, those people are not fun to play with.

Actually, I'm rather partial to the Costume Brawl, and I think smaller scale PvP arenas using a limited skill set or premade bars might be useful, but I doubt it would have any long term appeal and does nothing to help newer players in terms of creating and fine tuning their builds. Still, sealed deck GvG and such could be interesting. Maybe having sealed decks or premade bars used in the various arenas/pvp types as a special weekend event from time to time?

Fril Estelin · Jul 17, 2009, 12:04 PM // 12:04

Although really too short, I found the below article an example of how to bridge the gap in an original way:
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/haratu/072009/4264

Quote:

Thoughts on Thinking in MMOs
Posted by haratu Wednesday July 15 2009 at 7:18PM

Introduction

I am a school teacher (hence why font is comic sans), and nothing makes me more enthusiastic than a good game that encourages thinking, and I don't mean calculating the best item to pull of a critical 23% of the time while increasing armour to resist fire 98%. I mean serious strategical thinking that alters as you play due to constantly changing through unpredictable situations. Let me explain in more detail.

Many MMOs focus on the concept of pick a class/race then outfit with specific items to get the best out of your character dependent on their role in the game. If I were a tank class, for example, then I would be expected to get items that increase my protective skills or rolls. If I were to be the same tank class and yet get items to increase my damage then I would generally get other players either criticizing or not grouping with me because most likely I have no idea how to play my character. As a result I am defined by the game mechanics and design and am not putting effort into determining new strategies for how to play a class outside of its box.

Class Strategy

Take now an example of a game where you select your class but you can select skills to step away from the normal. Lets say I choose a Tank but this time select skills related to ranged dps. I then become a ranged dps who hits less (due to my class stats) but lasts much longer. My strategies would reflect this by my ability to stand ground for longer, resist attacks from opposing ranged dps (and not hide), and pester, but not kill as fast, other dps. My thinking and adaptability is showing itself.

I am now going to use an example from my past experience in World of Warcraft: Burning Crusade (I stopped playing in 2008). My main character was a warlock and as such I was a definite dps. At the time most warlocks chose heavy destruction (fire) mixed with shadow skills in order to increase their dps. If you did not do such then you often got criticized in large raid for not pulling your weight. I was criticized for a while with my skills because I did not choose such skills... until they realized I actually had a larger damage over the whole dungeon. Why? Because my skills let me live longer... thereby letting me do more damage over time. I was so good at staying alive I often successfully off tanked in emergencies.

This is common in many games where people rely on not thinking about their strategy and their class.

Map Strategy

Now WoW might have been a bad example as it is rather predictable, so I will move to a game where altering situations is more dominant, specifically Warhammer Online. I am choosing Warhammer as an example, there are better ones, but their situations are often more complex, so I am attempting to stick simple.

Warhammer Online has the common task of fighting the opposing player side in PvP (or RvR for pedantic people). Because different castles are taken by different sized groups, players are often forced to send out scouting parties and attack specific holdings to maintain superiority. there is often a give-take relationship where a war band will be forced to let the enemy take some land in order to take another piece of land. As well as this there is the constant shifting of numbers as people log in and out of the game, where once you my have had the upper hand you no longer do, therefore need to focus on getting a defensible position before you are overpowered. This constantly shifting position is the concept of strategy and thought where knowledge and wisdom take charge as opposed to mathematics and predictability and is more common in PvP games (although not always present).

Conclusion

So why choose a game that requires you to think about what you do?

The most important aspect to thought in an MMO is that it provides more of a feeling of having done something. Using the mind encourages you to feel like you have participated and are not just standing there to make sure the others have full hit points (yes, healing can be boring sometimes).

A second aspect is to teach you things, this is the same concept as the game of chess. By participating in a thinking MMO your mind is constantly learning about how people behave, how actions have consequences and thinking ahead (predictable instances rarely let you think further than the current monster).

The final aspect is that a thinking MMO encourages teamwork. By teamwork I do not mean "I tank, you heal", I mean your ability to adapt to the situation based upon how your team-mates work.

Remember: Chess is 3D, why can't an MMO require thought?

Ebony Shadowheart · Jul 17, 2009, 01:03 PM // 13:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

This isn't a competition mentality, however much you claim to understand competitive activity. There's a lot here I could respond to (in fact, I don't think I agree with a single thing in your post), but it's ultimately pointless because of the above mentality. To some people, winning matters, while others can't fathom what the big deal is ("gamez r srs bsns"). From what I've seen, neither camp has ever respected, let alone understood, the other.

Again, if fun is all you're concerned with, competitive activities are not for you. That isn't to say you can't have fun in a competitive activity, but fun itself is not the focus - to wit, there's always more to it than just having fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

I'd also like to add that having fun is great and all, but it isn't all that matters and it isn't the most important thing. The most important thing is that you improved your abilities. I've sacrificed a lot of possible "fun times" because I needed to work to improve my abilities. I could have had fun running around playing Byob and not get any better or I could play a balanced build, get stomped but learn from it. You don't learn from goofing around. Goofing around is fun but gets you nowhere in competitive environments.

So at the end of the day, all that matters is that you improved. Unless of course you are top quality material already, than all that matters is whether your cape is now gold because you won the monthly.

I guess I'm going to leave it at agreeing to disagree with you two.

To me, improving myself is part of the fun. Getting better is part of what makes it enjoyable. It keeps it interesting so it doesn't get repetitive and boring. I don't really subdivide it out like you guys do. Apparently my definition of what 'fun' is very different than yours, which you seem to be simply defining as 'goofing off.'

If winning is all that matters, then where is the enjoyment? True, no one likes losing, but there is more to the game than just winning. If you get no enjoyment out of simply competing and doing well, then you are taking competition too seriously, which can actually be bad for your mental health. I'll leave it at that, to each their own I suppose.

As for the gold trim - there is always something new to learn, something to make better. Even those with the fancy gold trim are constantly improving. Else they wouldn't have that pretty cape.

MithranArkanere · Jul 17, 2009, 06:12 PM // 18:12

For me it's fun when it's not the same al the time.

I play in a PvP mode until I start finding the ame 4 guys with the same profession and the same building acting in the same way.

Still Number One · Jul 17, 2009, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ebony Shadowheart

As for the gold trim - there is always something new to learn, something to make better. Even those with the fancy gold trim are constantly improving. Else they wouldn't have that pretty cape.

The point was that people who are capable of winning it aren't usually satisfied with their performance unless they actually do win it. That is why we see so many great guilds disbanding every single month. They didn't place where they thought they should so they get upset and disband. It is dumb but it is how things are.

Having fun is important and since there are no real cash prizes anymore, is really the only thing that matters. But the only point I'm trying to make is that in PvP you are working with 7 other people all the time, and while you may be having fun just by playing, a more competitive person may be getting frustrated if the guild isn't improving. Usually when the guild is improving and winning all 8 players are happy. That is why improving and winning matter so much.

Alleji · Jul 17, 2009, 09:59 PM // 21:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nerel

What do you think kept players from making the transition into becoming regular PvP players? Why is the PvP population so abysmally small compared to the masses of people happily grinding their way through PvE.

People tried, failed at it (repeatedly), got discouraged, and stopped trying. Others just heard horror stories from people who tried and didn't bother at all.

Grinding titles, on the other hand, is easy. It offers cheap gratification that people crave.

I thought everyone figured out that story by now?

Burst Cancel · Jul 18, 2009, 04:50 AM // 04:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ebony Shadowheart

To me, improving myself is part of the fun. Getting better is part of what makes it enjoyable. It keeps it interesting so it doesn't get repetitive and boring. I don't really subdivide it out like you guys do. Apparently my definition of what 'fun' is very different than yours, which you seem to be simply defining as 'goofing off.'

If winning is all that matters, then where is the enjoyment? True, no one likes losing, but there is more to the game than just winning. If you get no enjoyment out of simply competing and doing well, then you are taking competition too seriously, which can actually be bad for your mental health. I'll leave it at that, to each their own I suppose.

The difference is simpler than that: it is the difference between fun being the focus, and fun being a side effect.

If fun is all that matters, then it doesn't matter if you lose, play poorly, or don't improve, provided that you managed to have fun anyway; furthermore, playing well or winning doesn't matter to you if you don't have fun doing it. Neither of these attitudes is tenable in a competitive environment.

The reasons for this should be fairly obvious. For example, most competitive activities require a great deal of serious training, and this training is often not at all fun or enjoyable. People who are in it for the fun tend not to approach such training with much enthusiasm, and will ultimately fail as serious competitors as a result. Similarly, it is possible (or even easy, especially in a game) to have fun even while losing or playing poorly, but such play is a complete waste of time from a competitive standpoint - even if you're having fun, you're not learning anything or improving in any way. Furthermore, some of the most effective tactics may not be any fun to execute, and someone focused on fun will avoid these tactics regardless of their effectiveness in favor of tactics that are "more fun"; competition-oriented players don't care about the "fun value" of their tactics.

Once you're able to understand this mentality, most other competitive behaviors naturally follow. Calling people out* when they play poorly is not only acceptable, but expected, because nobody is particularly concerned about hurting feelings or embarrassing people; such things simply aren't relevant to begin with. Results are relevant. Skill is relevant. Feelings and bruised egos are not. "Rank elitism" exists for the same reasons - all else being equal, a higher rank is more likely to give better results.

*It should be noted that simply bitching at random is not calling anyone out for bad play - it's just stupid random bitching. This kind of behavior really has nothing to do with competition.